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in june 1992

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an extraordinary meeting took place at a

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major university in cambridge

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massachusetts concerning the ufo

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abduction phenomenon

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the abduction study conference attracted

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mental health practitioners

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ufo investigators and abduction

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witnesses from throughout north america

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and around the world

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following the conference a group of

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investigators and therapists gathered

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together for a provocative discussion of

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ufo abductions

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the participants included dr thomas e

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bullard

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assistant professor of folklore at

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indiana university

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john carpenter licensed clinical social

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worker and psychiatric therapist in

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springfield missouri

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dr david gottlieb a physician and

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therapist in toronto canada

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richard hall a writer editor member of

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the national board of the fund for ufo

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research

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and author of a book on unidentified

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flying objects bud hopkins

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a new york city artist and ufo

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investigator and author of two books on

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ufo abductions

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dr david jacobs associate professor of

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history at temple university

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and author of a recently published book

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on ufo abductions

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and dr david pritchard a professor at

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the massachusetts institute of

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technology

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and coordinator of the abduction study

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conference

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the discussion was moderated by richard

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hall

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what exactly is an abduction report uh

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what is it that people

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typically report in an abduction case

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eddie could you tell us

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the basic abduction report is is

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an account of someone taken from the

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highway

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from a bedroom from the open air

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taken into an unusual environment by

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usually very short gray beings

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of of humanoid but non-human description

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given a physical examination of some

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sort and then

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returned home sometimes the cases get

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more

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elaborate as the person has a

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conversation with the beings and

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in a few cases you also get even more

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elaborate descriptions of uh

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transport to some very strange seemingly

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otherworldly environment

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but the basic classic abduction report

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in those reports the key elements are

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the capture

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the examination and the return okay

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maybe bud and dave jacobs could give us

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an example or two of a case they've been

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well one of the things that should be

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mentioned is that this doesn't just

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happen necessarily one person at a time

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and so if two or three people may be

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abducted say from an automobile or

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whatever when they're taken into the

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ship

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i should add they're sometimes floated

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as if they're weightless

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and very rarely do they simply walk

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but when they're taken into the ship

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they're generally gonna separate one

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from another so they'll have

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uh very consonant memories up until the

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time they finally

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go into the ship and i have cases

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involving as many as seven people that

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we're taking at once but in descriptions

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exactly as you've described it okay i

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might add also that

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uh that the people who say these things

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are apparently a random

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cross-section of the population and

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there doesn't seem to be any patterns

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that we can find in terms of age or

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ethnic group or educational level or

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anything of that sort

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and they all describe basically the same

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experiences and many of the reports are

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are fairly complex and uh and yet

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and there's of course a variation in

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detail in them in them but of course

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there's also a certain precision in

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their detail that is uh

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very very extraordinary and uh and

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constitutes uh one of the core features

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of the abduction development

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okay let me ask uh i just sure

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pitch in what about the issue of

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what age are the people when these

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things happen and whether they happen

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more than once the uh

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cut off age for the first abduction is

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almost

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always about 30 or 35. it's

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abduction seemed to be an affliction of

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the young

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sometimes starting at a very early age

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almost at the cradle certainly by age

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say five or six and it usually goes on

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the rest

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good part of it

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i think it's also important to realize

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that the these cases in which a small

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child

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reports an abduction sometimes in great

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detail

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uh a child that i've worked with uh

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told his mother with the great terror

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the next morning that he'd been floated

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out a window

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by three little beings they went up a

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blue beam of light into a ship

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he was put on a table things were done

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to his body uh

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some children then demonstrated to their

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parents that where a mark was

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a cut was put on the body and so and

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these are children two three four five

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years old even

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so we're not getting something that's

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feeding back through

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films or whatever there is a remarkable

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lot of detail that keeps recurring from

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people who

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know nothing about the phenomenon who

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know nothing about other people's cases

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and as you said even little children who

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have no

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possibility of remembering will

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still say the same thing let me also say

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that that

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at the same time we do get quite a large

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number of

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reports from people who have had these

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experiences from the time that they were

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small children

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and who now might be in their 60s or 70s

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and are still having the

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the experience as well and the

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experiences have a similarity basically

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with other people's experiences

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in other words there's a change in the

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way in which they might be

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handled from being a

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child to an adult but the

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all the cases seem to correlate

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according to age as well all the adults

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basically see if they're treated one way

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and children are treated another way to

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a certain extent

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okay now we've just come from an

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important conference in which we've been

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addressing this

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subject i'd like to ask dave pritchard

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to tell us what exactly was the purpose

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of this conference

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you know what did we hope to accomplish

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with it well you know of course like any

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conference you have a number of purposes

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and you try to balance them off but i

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i think first and foremost in a field

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like this

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it's very important to bring the

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researchers and the

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abductees or experiences whatever you

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want to call them and

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together and in this case we also

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brought in a lot of related

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professionals

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as well it's important to bring them

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together just to talk and to share the

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ideas

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and and uh in the presentations to

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present the

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latest results uh in the field uh a

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specific

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objective that differentiates this uh

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conference from many of the earlier

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meetings held at which abductees were a

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small or medium part of the

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proceedings were that here they were the

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entire

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conference uh almost five days focused

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just on abductions

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no ufos no crop circles and

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uh secondarily that we tried to bring in

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a wider

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group of professionals than is normally

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the case we tried to bring in people

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the psychologists you know for instance

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who are

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some sort of related collective mental

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aberrative phenomena dissociative

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phenomena we tried to bring in

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uh scientists and even theologians i

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mean this is

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this problem i think when you really get

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into it is extremely broad it's not just

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a simple matter of being

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the table examined and put back and

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certainly it has a tremendous effect on

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the

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a really

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good discussion and uh you know at least

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the total amount of time allocated

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discussion was about half of the

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presentation time it wasn't just

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you make your presentation and then you

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dodge a couple questions and sit down i

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mean we really had

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a good discussion by which i mean it was

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extensive uh and it was critical

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and we had a number of critics uh

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mostly of the methodology or the

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interpretation

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uh in fact we even had uh a couple of

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people who were quite skeptical there

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and then the final purpose of the

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conference is to

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put out a proceedings that reflect what

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went on

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and reflect this field pretty much from

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top to bottom left to right or however

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many dimensions you think it has

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okay we'll get a little a little later

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we'll get into

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what we think we've accomplished here

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but let me just ask the

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therapists what were your expectations

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coming into the conference what did you

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think we or hope we would accomplish

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i had well there were two things that i

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was hoping to take away from

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one was to collect more clinical data

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and learn the results of clinical

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surveys that other people have done

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which will help me in my diagnosis and

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my treatment

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the other was to have a bunch of

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clinicians together and investigators

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and abductees

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representing a wide variety of

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experience so we can begin to put

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together some basic guidelines on how to

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proceed

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from a therapeutic point of view

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john as therapists we all work in such

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isolated fashion far away from

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each other so each time we have an

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opportunity to come together like this

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it's it's like a family reunion of sorts

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although there's always new members that

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we haven't seen before

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learn to pull them in and learn what

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their interests and expertise are

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i personally learned a great deal from

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the specialists in other

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parts of the field different aspects i

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had never

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encountered such expertise and knowledge

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regarding and that was quite helpful to

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me

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and will continue to be an ongoing

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process it's also quite helpful to hear

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from those who have experienced the

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phenomenon and again a representation

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from all across the country

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and to see what was similar among their

289
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:38,959
experiences and especially needs i think

290
00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:40,640
if i can just add one of the one of the

291
00:10:43,509 --> 00:10:42,160
things that made this meeting really

292
00:10:46,870 --> 00:10:43,519
special for me

293
00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:46,880
was the wide diversity of specialists

294
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:48,720
that were invited to speak and invited

295
00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:50,399
to participate because one of my major

296
00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:52,240
concerns as a therapist is differential

297
00:10:55,190 --> 00:10:53,360
diagnosis

298
00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:55,200
someone may present believing they have

299
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:56,800
an abduction experience but i have to

300
00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,760
separate out

301
00:11:01,110 --> 00:10:59,680
the true abduction experiences from

302
00:11:03,190 --> 00:11:01,120
other things which may resemble it

303
00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:03,200
closely or may resemble it not at all

304
00:11:06,389 --> 00:11:04,959
and we had people here who were expert

305
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:06,399
in dissociative phenomena

306
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,870
psychologists psychometricians and so on

307
00:11:16,949 --> 00:11:14,399
it was very helpful for me

308
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,959
to try to hone in on the people that i

309
00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:18,640
should really be identifying as

310
00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:21,920
abductees okay good let me uh ask the

311
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:24,399
investigators from their perspective

312
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:26,480
what their expectations were coming into

313
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:27,440
the conference and

314
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:28,880
and you can go right ahead into what you

315
00:11:32,389 --> 00:11:30,560
think we've accomplished

316
00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:32,399
we'll talk later about where we go from

317
00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:34,000
here but so far what you think we may

318
00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:38,790
well from my point of view i would think

319
00:11:41,910 --> 00:11:40,000
the uh

320
00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:41,920
the most significant thing is is pretty

321
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:44,000
much what dave gottlieb said

322
00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:46,240
that we got so many people and so many

323
00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:48,320
diverse points of view together

324
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:50,160
we got to see what people were doing in

325
00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:51,519
the field

326
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:54,320
how their different perspectives can

327
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:55,680
make a contribution to our

328
00:12:01,670 --> 00:11:59,120
understanding of what's going on

329
00:12:03,750 --> 00:12:01,680
and i i think it was a very enlightening

330
00:12:05,829 --> 00:12:03,760
sort of thing to see

331
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:05,839
not only the the clinical side with the

332
00:12:10,949 --> 00:12:08,000
investigative side

333
00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:10,959
and all the variety of opinion and there

334
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:13,279
was a lot of discussion about the

335
00:12:17,509 --> 00:12:15,600
interactions between and among

336
00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:17,519
investigators and therapists and the

337
00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:19,360
perceivers that was a good part of the

338
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:20,079
conference

339
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:21,519
i think i'd like to talk about that a

340
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:27,910
actually it's not exactly to that point

341
00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:30,399
all right go ahead but

342
00:12:33,670 --> 00:12:33,200
the thing that was most valuable to me i

343
00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:33,680
think

344
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:36,720
is lies in the area just very things

345
00:12:40,949 --> 00:12:37,360
that

346
00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:40,959
they've not mentioned i think

347
00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:44,000
for instance a woman who spoke about her

348
00:12:48,629 --> 00:12:45,600
specialty which was treating

349
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:48,639
post-traumatic stress disorder victims

350
00:12:53,829 --> 00:12:51,120
what seemed to work better what their

351
00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:53,839
strategies of denials

352
00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:55,600
the various systems they use to handle

353
00:13:00,230 --> 00:12:57,120
experiences and so forth

354
00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:00,240
uh even though she is working with

355
00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:02,800
vietnam war vets and other people rape

356
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:04,079
victims and so forth

357
00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:06,480
uh the parallels are so extraordinary

358
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:07,760
with what i run into

359
00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:11,519
uh practically daily with the abductees

360
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:13,600
it was extremely helpful to get her

361
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:14,800
perspective on

362
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:18,320
treatment and behavior symptoms and so

363
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:19,120
forth

364
00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:22,079
because not being a trained therapist of

365
00:13:25,110 --> 00:13:23,440
course it's extremely important for me

366
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:25,120
to get as much raw material

367
00:13:27,829 --> 00:13:26,399
as i can for these sources and i think

368
00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:27,839
for the investigators at least speaking

369
00:13:30,870 --> 00:13:29,120
for myself

370
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:30,880
all of that side of the program was

371
00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:32,240
extraordinarily important

372
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:35,440
yes i i agree with that it was uh gave

373
00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:36,720
me an insight into

374
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:38,880
into various uh treatments and and ways

375
00:13:42,389 --> 00:13:40,320
to approach the subject

376
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,399
i think the conference also showed me uh

377
00:13:46,389 --> 00:13:44,800
basically uh where people are at

378
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:46,399
on a personal level how they confront

379
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:48,399
this phenomenon all the variations that

380
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:50,320
one sees across the society

381
00:13:53,509 --> 00:13:52,240
on a professional level how people are

382
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:53,519
investigating it how they're doing

383
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:54,639
research

384
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:57,360
points directions as to how far we've

385
00:14:00,069 --> 00:13:58,160
gone in

386
00:14:01,509 --> 00:14:00,079
and what we need to do in the future as

387
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:01,519
well and it kind of brings it all

388
00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:03,760
together in sharp relief and it's a

389
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:05,920
it's an enormous benefit on that regard

390
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:08,240
you know just one added thought here

391
00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:10,800
what was so fascinating to me about the

392
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:13,360
role of the abductees of the conference

393
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:16,800
the scientists and clinicians

394
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:19,360
therapists and the investigators is that

395
00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:20,720
in a strange way

396
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:22,560
each one of us is participating in the

397
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:24,320
world of the other two to a much greater

398
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:25,519
extent than we thought

399
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:28,320
even one of the therapists suggested

400
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:29,600
that

401
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:31,120
those of us who were doing this work

402
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:33,440
with people who had these experiences

403
00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:35,279
are somehow picking up

404
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:37,600
through just association and osmosis i

405
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:38,959
guess some of the same

406
00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:40,639
symptoms and anxieties of the people

407
00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:42,399
we're actually working with and i think

408
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:42,800
that

409
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:45,440
nobody can do an investigation without

410
00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:46,320
doing

411
00:14:51,189 --> 00:14:49,279
de facto therapy yes and nobody can do

412
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:51,199
therapy without in a strange way with

413
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:52,959
such an unusual subject being

414
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:55,120
a kind of pioneer investigator so we're

415
00:14:58,629 --> 00:14:57,120
all three in a strange way

416
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:58,639
infinitely more interlocked with one

417
00:15:02,629 --> 00:15:00,639
another's worlds than we hit thought

418
00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:02,639
how do the therapists feel about this

419
00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:04,720
relationship

420
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:07,839
i think we're still trying to work on

421
00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:09,519
exactly how to define it i think

422
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:13,120
basically bun's point is exactly right

423
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:14,800
whether i'm working with an advocate or

424
00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:16,880
any other kind of

425
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:20,000
problem or syndrome as a therapist i am

426
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:21,519
de facto an investigator

427
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:24,000
because i in the it's a dynamic organic

428
00:15:27,509 --> 00:15:25,519
process i'm learning more about the

429
00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:27,519
person more about his biographies or her

430
00:15:31,189 --> 00:15:28,959
biography and so on

431
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:31,199
and i think it's true from the other the

432
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:32,480
other direction one of the things that

433
00:15:35,749 --> 00:15:34,240
we were talking about today and it was

434
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:35,759
there was an interesting discussion back

435
00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:37,279
and forth is uh

436
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:40,240
how does one balance the the therapist

437
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:42,160
and the investigators roles one person

438
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:42,720
said that

439
00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:44,160
there should be a triad there should be

440
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:46,000
an investigator a therapist and an

441
00:15:49,749 --> 00:15:47,440
experiencer who as a team

442
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:49,759
should move in and deal with each

443
00:15:53,749 --> 00:15:50,880
experience

444
00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:53,759
one suggestion and i think out of out of

445
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:54,959
this conference is

446
00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:00,710
a working group which will work towards

447
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,920
a proposal for

448
00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:03,440
how to answer these questions in a way

449
00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:05,600
that the entire community can accept and

450
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:06,320
debate so

451
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:08,399
we can introduce it into the into the

452
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:10,079
public forum it can be our

453
00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:13,519
community policy i i would just like to

454
00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:14,480
interject that

455
00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:18,399
um it seemed you know the key in this

456
00:16:25,189 --> 00:16:22,880
whole field is the tremendous impact

457
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:25,199
and just feeling that something

458
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:26,399
important has happened

459
00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:28,160
that you get when you speak to the

460
00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:31,120
abductees that's where it all starts

461
00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:33,199
but i've and at the previous meetings

462
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:34,639
where there have been

463
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:36,720
abductee panels or presentations you

464
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:37,920
know that's what's come across

465
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:40,240
most strongly but at this point i had

466
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:41,680
much more the feeling that they were

467
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:43,120
beginning to talk to us

468
00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:45,040
and say you know some of you people have

469
00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:46,399
been too narrow you haven't opened

470
00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:48,320
yourself to this full experience

471
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:51,519
and uh and as bud said i think

472
00:16:56,069 --> 00:16:53,519
you're you're partly a participant in

473
00:16:58,389 --> 00:16:56,079
this not just an observer

474
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:58,399
yes and they they spoke uh rather

475
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:00,160
strongly about the problem they have

476
00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:03,120
in uh establishing their relationships

477
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:04,720
with both therapists and

478
00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:06,160
investigators would you like to address

479
00:17:10,150 --> 00:17:08,559
that a little bit

480
00:17:12,309 --> 00:17:10,160
well i'd like to actually start off i

481
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:12,319
mean that's clearly one of the

482
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:15,199
really underlying dichotomies in the

483
00:17:18,069 --> 00:17:16,880
people who are looking at the

484
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:18,079
abductees you know you have the

485
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:20,480
investigators who are assuming that

486
00:17:24,949 --> 00:17:23,439
there is some underlying reality in many

487
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:24,959
cases not all of them

488
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:26,640
uh and then they're trying to find this

489
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:28,559
out you know without distortion

490
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:32,640
uh you know by the the emotions of the

491
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:33,840
precipitation which is extremely

492
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:34,960
difficult to do but they're trying to

493
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,640
get through that somehow

494
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:38,720
get out get around the confabulation or

495
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,960
the misapprehension and so on

496
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:42,720
then on the other hand there's a therapy

497
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:45,200
people who are really trying to change

498
00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:45,679
the way

499
00:17:50,230 --> 00:17:47,440
these people look at their experience

500
00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:50,240
without particular regard for its origin

501
00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:51,919
and help them come to grips with it view

502
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:54,000
themselves as survivors rather than

503
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:55,840
victims or even there were some reports

504
00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:56,160
here

505
00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:58,720
going beyond that and changing in a

506
00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:00,559
quite global way their perspectives on

507
00:18:04,390 --> 00:18:01,760
the whole thing

508
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:04,400
the problem for for for john and myself

509
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:07,280
and the therapists who are here is that

510
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:09,440
most of us are working in as a practical

511
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:10,640
problem most of us are working in

512
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:12,240
regulated professions

513
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,440
and at any time we can be called up to

514
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:17,840
justify our actions as being rep as

515
00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:18,559
being as

516
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:20,240
being following the accepted standards

517
00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:21,760
and practices of the community

518
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:23,200
so we're caught in a really difficult

519
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:25,280
situation on the one hand we recognize

520
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:27,120
what's going on here we don't may not

521
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:28,480
know exactly what it is but there are

522
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:30,240
people who are isolated and confused

523
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:31,919
they're in pain and they need help we're

524
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,480
interested

525
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:34,080
we want to do as a public service to

526
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:35,840
step in and try to use what skills we

527
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:36,480
have

528
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,960
on the other hand all of our training

529
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,240
and experience

530
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:42,720
is to recognize a particular syndrome

531
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:44,160
look at the research that's been done in

532
00:18:46,789 --> 00:18:45,679
the medical literature and apply it so

533
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:46,799
that we can go back to our

534
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:48,480
our colleagues and our peers and say oh

535
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:50,080
this is what we're doing maybe the case

536
00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:51,760
didn't turn out right but not all cases

537
00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:53,600
will turn out right at least we did

538
00:18:57,350 --> 00:18:55,840
what you believe to be accepted practice

539
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:57,360
and there are no such standards here

540
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:58,160
certainly not

541
00:19:02,230 --> 00:19:00,480
if i go back to my licensing board so we

542
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:02,240
have to be we walk a very

543
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:04,080
fine line we want to treat the

544
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:05,600
experiencer with respect we want to

545
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:07,440
collect information so we can understand

546
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,960
what we're dealing with so we can do a

547
00:19:13,029 --> 00:19:10,799
better service to the experiencer

548
00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:13,039
without going too far off in the data

549
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:14,880
collection and without going too far off

550
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:16,400
in our own conceptualization of the

551
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:17,360
phenomenon

552
00:19:21,110 --> 00:19:19,200
and that's uh that takes a tremendous

553
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:21,120
amount of thinking and discipline and

554
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:22,559
dialogue and that's what this week was

555
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:23,600
all about right

556
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:25,679
i think those are extremely important

557
00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:26,880
points

558
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:28,559
those who've experienced the phenomenon

559
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:31,039
certainly gave us a very clear message

560
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:34,960
about trust responsibility

561
00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:37,440
not just any psychologist can pick this

562
00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:38,320
up and

563
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,679
try to start seeing people and those who

564
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:43,200
experience this phenomenon

565
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:45,200
immediately will recognize that they

566
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:46,960
have a narrow focus

567
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:49,679
and it immediately can discount very

568
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:51,440
important parts of their experience so

569
00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:52,080
there's a great

570
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:54,080
knowledge that those who are wanting to

571
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:56,720
help need to obtain

572
00:20:03,190 --> 00:20:00,320
and we are constantly as therapists

573
00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:03,200
gaining in our understanding it's really

574
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:06,320
a teaching that goes both ways

575
00:20:11,990 --> 00:20:09,360
so you know i think that these are all

576
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:12,000
very important issues we have to stay

577
00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:14,880
as david said keep in mind very clearly

578
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:16,720
very clearly

579
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:18,720
there's one of the professionals who was

580
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:20,080
present who stated rather

581
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:21,600
forcefully that it was absolutely

582
00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:23,600
impossible to do both investigation and

583
00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:25,360
therapy at the same time what do you

584
00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:26,480
some of you

585
00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:29,200
i like to address that okay indeed we

586
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:30,960
wear many hats

587
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:33,200
as it has been already stated a

588
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:34,240
therapist

589
00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:36,640
is a natural data collector just because

590
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:38,559
of the information the content of the

591
00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:39,440
session

592
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:41,919
now as a therapist i focus on the

593
00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:43,760
symptoms the origin

594
00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:46,880
the treatment the resolution of that and

595
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:48,880
in the process you may hear some pretty

596
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:50,080
strange stuff

597
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:52,559
and you're not going to discount that

598
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:54,080
especially if you've already judged the

599
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:55,360
person to be saying

600
00:20:58,549 --> 00:20:56,880
you're you're naturally going to be

601
00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:58,559
collecting data and you're not going to

602
00:21:01,669 --> 00:21:00,000
just pitch it in the waste can

603
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:01,679
especially with something so bizarre as

604
00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:03,200
this so

605
00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:05,200
at one point in the process you're the

606
00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:06,320
therapist

607
00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:08,320
you're really tuning into emotional

608
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:10,799
needs but when those have

609
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:13,600
subsided and the person is doing well

610
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:14,960
and you can deal a lot more with the

611
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:17,280
data side and you can switch hats

612
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:19,360
you do not do both at the same time but

613
00:21:24,310 --> 00:21:22,000
you can switch hats in the process

614
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:24,320
i think that a lot of the a lot of the

615
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:26,320
problem here is in defining terms as it

616
00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:28,799
often isn't discussions like this

617
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:30,480
i think when people in this business use

618
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:32,720
the term investigator they use it in the

619
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:34,320
context of people who've gone out and

620
00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:35,200
examined

621
00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:37,919
ce1 c2 and ce3 cases they interview the

622
00:21:40,549 --> 00:21:38,880
people and they

623
00:21:43,029 --> 00:21:40,559
remain detached and they take pictures

624
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:43,039
and they collect soil samples

625
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:46,640
and that's fine but uh

626
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:49,919
as therapists we act as investigators of

627
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:53,360
experience and that we cannot do that

628
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:55,360
in a completely detached way and i don't

629
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:57,039
think an investigator who

630
00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:58,320
does not call himself a therapist

631
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:59,679
primarily still can't do it in a

632
00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:01,440
completely detached way

633
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:02,720
most of the people who've been working

634
00:22:05,029 --> 00:22:04,080
in this as investigators have found

635
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:05,039
themselves drawn

636
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:08,400
into the support and the the therapeutic

637
00:22:11,669 --> 00:22:10,080
aspects of what they're doing so it we

638
00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:11,679
maybe we need a new word neither

639
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:13,679
investigator nor therapist but something

640
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:14,559
else

641
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:16,159
and i like to add one more point and

642
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:17,919
that is it's

643
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:20,400
it's hard to wear both hats so what many

644
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:21,600
of us have already done

645
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:25,520
is included an investigator now

646
00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:27,200
instead of thinking that they

647
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:29,039
specifically deal with that part and i

648
00:22:34,789 --> 00:22:32,559
specifically deal with therapy

649
00:22:36,870 --> 00:22:34,799
it's really like just having two heads

650
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:36,880
two brains working on the problem

651
00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:39,440
it's really just a teamwork approach i'd

652
00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:41,840
like to mention one thing that's

653
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:45,440
about the the dual roles years ago

654
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:48,480
when i first started these cases i was

655
00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:49,280
using

656
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:51,840
various psychiatrists and psychologists

657
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:54,559
to do the hypnotic regressions

658
00:22:57,990 --> 00:22:56,480
and i was there in the role of taking

659
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:58,000
notes and observing and

660
00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:01,200
so forth but the interesting thing was

661
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:04,000
as soon as we left i would leave of

662
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:05,840
course with the subject

663
00:23:09,669 --> 00:23:07,919
the subject would be pouring out his or

664
00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:09,679
her heart to me about

665
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:13,200
what had gone on the person would call

666
00:23:17,110 --> 00:23:14,480
me at all hours of the night

667
00:23:18,390 --> 00:23:17,120
we would have long discussions and it

668
00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:18,400
dawned on me at some point that in a

669
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:20,400
peculiar way

670
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:22,000
the person doing the hypnosis the

671
00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:23,520
psychologist was in a strange way the

672
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:26,080
investigator and i was doing the therapy

673
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:27,360
i was the one who was receiving the

674
00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:28,960
phone calls and trying to handle the

675
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:29,840
person

676
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:34,159
that was not of course as clear-cut as

677
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:34,559
that

678
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:36,880
but it was a peculiar realization as to

679
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:38,640
who was actually keeping that person

680
00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:39,600
afloat

681
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:42,000
and what common sense skills one had to

682
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:44,240
develop to do that

683
00:23:49,029 --> 00:23:47,279
so i i agree with everything

684
00:23:50,710 --> 00:23:49,039
that's being said here is that it is

685
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:50,720
extremely difficult to separate these

686
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:52,000
roles

687
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:54,240
yeah i'd like to also to agree with that

688
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:55,440
of course it's uh

689
00:23:59,269 --> 00:23:57,520
it's it's difficult to to separate the

690
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:59,279
rules and in

691
00:24:02,789 --> 00:24:01,679
difficult to do therapy and to do

692
00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:02,799
investigation

693
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:05,120
per se as such i mean this is a very

694
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:06,400
tough subject

695
00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:09,039
and uh i think it can be done with the

696
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:10,960
specific with a sufficient amount of

697
00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:11,760
training

698
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:13,360
i think that they're they're

699
00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:15,679
complementary and then i think that uh

700
00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:17,200
my own guess is that a therapist

701
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:18,720
probably would work better knowing

702
00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:19,919
exactly what has happened to the

703
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:21,279
individual so they know

704
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:23,600
what to work with and what to work on

705
00:24:26,789 --> 00:24:25,520
and if you combine these two

706
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:26,799
with a certain amount of insight and

707
00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:29,120
compassion and humanity you'll find out

708
00:24:32,149 --> 00:24:30,880
what is happening and you'll also find

709
00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:32,159
out the best ways to approach

710
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:35,039
treatment but this is it's not easy and

711
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:37,360
most people as david you say who are

712
00:24:42,070 --> 00:24:39,919
ufo researchers uh who've long

713
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:42,080
investigated ce ones and so forth

714
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:43,760
this is just not an area that that

715
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:46,159
they're that's easy for them to get into

716
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:48,000
you know it's very difficult i think you

717
00:24:53,710 --> 00:24:49,520
can sum this up

718
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:53,720
in terms of compassion trust

719
00:24:59,750 --> 00:24:57,679
responsibility and open-mindedness

720
00:25:02,390 --> 00:24:59,760
in my own personal experience as an

721
00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:02,400
alleged investigator i find it

722
00:25:07,830 --> 00:25:05,840
very very difficult to do classical

723
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:07,840
investigation i find myself being far

724
00:25:11,029 --> 00:25:09,360
more a therapist

725
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:11,039
a counselor i do not feel comfortable

726
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:12,480
with that at all because i'm not trained

727
00:25:16,149 --> 00:25:14,240
to do that

728
00:25:17,990 --> 00:25:16,159
okay anybody else like to add anything

729
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:18,000
to that

730
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:20,080
okay then go ahead i'd like to add one

731
00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:22,320
more thing about that

732
00:25:26,149 --> 00:25:24,159
from time to time people will send me

733
00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:26,159
tapes or transcripts of

734
00:25:29,269 --> 00:25:27,919
investigations that have been done and

735
00:25:31,269 --> 00:25:29,279
sometimes are done by therapists and

736
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:31,279
sometimes are done by investigators

737
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:33,279
and i i haven't really i found

738
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:34,400
investigators who do

739
00:25:38,470 --> 00:25:37,440
terrific jobs in support in empathy and

740
00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:38,480
sensitivity

741
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:41,440
and i found therapists who are who are

742
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:42,880
very insensitive

743
00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:44,799
and very close-minded about what's

744
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:46,480
happening and not very helpful to people

745
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:47,279
as well

746
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:50,640
i think i'm a pretty good empath

747
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:54,000
well you know i i read recently a review

748
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:55,120
of somebody's book

749
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:57,679
about the abduction phenomenon and i

750
00:25:59,510 --> 00:25:59,200
mean it was a blurb on the back and it

751
00:26:01,750 --> 00:25:59,520
said

752
00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:01,760
that this person is doing the correct

753
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:02,960
thing by

754
00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:06,240
these experiences

755
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:07,840
are real to the person to whom they

756
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:09,840
happen and skipping the question

757
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:12,720
as to whether the events are real event

758
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:14,240
level

759
00:26:17,669 --> 00:26:15,279
[Music]

760
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:17,679
occurrences and of course i think that

761
00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:18,799
that's got everything completely

762
00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:20,559
backwards because we all

763
00:26:23,830 --> 00:26:22,240
everyone would agree the experiences are

764
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:23,840
real to the person whom they happen

765
00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:26,000
even as the worst skeptic in the world

766
00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:28,640
would say it's real to that person

767
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:30,799
the crucial thing to find out is that

768
00:26:34,549 --> 00:26:32,000
these events occur

769
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:34,559
in in the real world that's what that's

770
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:35,360
what we should be

771
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:37,039
concentrating on and i don't think that

772
00:26:41,350 --> 00:26:39,679
any kind of of um

773
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:41,360
really proper therapy could even be

774
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:43,440
administered if one

775
00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:46,240
uh was trying to say for instance with

776
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:47,600
an alleged rape

777
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:49,039
that to the therapist it made no

778
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:50,880
difference whether the person was raped

779
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:52,559
or whether the person fantasized the

780
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:53,200
rape

781
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:54,960
i think this therapies would probably be

782
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:57,039
quite difficult the problem is

783
00:27:01,430 --> 00:27:00,080
that for people who are licensed

784
00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:01,440
therapists for instance

785
00:27:04,549 --> 00:27:02,960
they're presented with some first of all

786
00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:04,559
they're presented with somebody in pain

787
00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:06,000
in distress suffering

788
00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:07,360
post-traumatic stress disorder some

789
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:09,760
other problem and

790
00:27:13,830 --> 00:27:12,320
they don't know one group of

791
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:13,840
investigator might have a large number

792
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:15,600
of cases and they know and they might go

793
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:17,600
to a conference and they might know but

794
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:19,440
in my position if i'm presented with

795
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:20,880
somebody like that

796
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:24,000
if i proceed on on the the firm belief

797
00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:25,600
that this actually happened in event

798
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:26,960
level reality whether i

799
00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:28,880
believe it's true or not whether it

800
00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:31,360
whether in fact actually is true or not

801
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:33,919
the end result of that could be that if

802
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:35,679
i have a bad outcome from a case

803
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,360
and all physicians have bad outcomes

804
00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:39,120
from cases no matter how good they are

805
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:40,880
and all investigators and all

806
00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:42,480
investigators we all do

807
00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:45,279
and someone makes a complaint then i end

808
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:47,200
up having to be called in front of my

809
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:49,200
disciplinary board to justify the fact

810
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:49,919
that i was

811
00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:52,000
approaching this case as if this was an

812
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:53,120
actual fact

813
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:55,200
and that's very difficult to justify to

814
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:57,039
a very conservative medical board and

815
00:27:59,590 --> 00:27:58,559
the end result of that kind of a

816
00:28:02,070 --> 00:27:59,600
situation

817
00:28:04,070 --> 00:28:02,080
is that i get shut down probably all the

818
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:04,080
other therapists in town get shut down

819
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:05,600
it hits the newspapers and there's this

820
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:07,760
tremendous backlash so

821
00:28:11,909 --> 00:28:10,080
the therapists already are in a curious

822
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:11,919
position of wanting to help the best

823
00:28:15,669 --> 00:28:12,640
they can

824
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:15,679
and trying to walk this fine line so i

825
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:22,149
but but that i was i i think that what's

826
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:22,960
before us

827
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:25,520
is beyond the problem of whether the

828
00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:26,960
experiences are real to the people

829
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:28,720
we should all agree that they are some

830
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:30,080
people don't you see that yes

831
00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:31,600
even even saying that they're real to

832
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:33,360
the people in in a conservative medical

833
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:34,880
or psychological community that's a

834
00:28:38,470 --> 00:28:36,130
stretch

835
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:38,480
[Music]

836
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,640
well some people think that napoleon and

837
00:28:44,789 --> 00:28:42,720
that's important

838
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:44,799
but i think you do make a good point

839
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:45,840
because

840
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:47,760
for us to think that we know all about

841
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:49,279
reality that there is

842
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:52,480
and then try to uh describe that to the

843
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,600
patient

844
00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:55,440
it's a very tricky process because how

845
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:57,120
can we be sure

846
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:59,760
we have to some extent if they seem sane

847
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:00,320
and

848
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:04,880
are real we do

849
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:06,720
have to at least consider that and that

850
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:08,159
is where a lot of therapists do have a

851
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:08,880
problem

852
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:12,080
because given all that they still put

853
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:13,360
the boundaries on what they

854
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:15,600
believe and impart that to the patient

855
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:17,279
it's very interesting to see when that

856
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:19,120
happens because they will make they'll

857
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:20,720
be logical logical logical

858
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:22,320
you'll point out to them how logic

859
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:23,760
dictates that they are not

860
00:29:27,430 --> 00:29:25,120
psychotic they're not hallucinating they

861
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:27,440
don't suffer from organic illness

862
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:29,919
therefore this must be happening at some

863
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:32,640
level of reality and they'll say no

864
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:34,559
no they won't they won't call that

865
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:37,200
expression even though logic dictates it

866
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:39,279
you see this process with investigation

867
00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:41,120
too over the years with each decade that

868
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:42,000
passes

869
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:43,600
there's a certain chunk of this

870
00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:45,679
weirdness that we accept

871
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:47,279
but there's still this little bit that's

872
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:48,880
too weird yet and

873
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:51,200
in in such an odd field to call anything

874
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:52,000
weird is

875
00:29:55,669 --> 00:29:54,880
is something in itself oftentimes this

876
00:29:58,389 --> 00:29:55,679
problem though is

877
00:30:00,310 --> 00:29:58,399
is solved by by the abductee or the

878
00:30:01,750 --> 00:30:00,320
person in front of you

879
00:30:04,149 --> 00:30:01,760
many people come and they they want to

880
00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:04,159
know did this happen to me or am i crazy

881
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:06,399
or do i invent this in some way and

882
00:30:11,269 --> 00:30:09,440
and uh but oftentimes uh what happens is

883
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:11,279
somebody for instance i had a situation

884
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:12,880
where i had an attorney who uh

885
00:30:17,029 --> 00:30:14,640
remembered something when he's 15 years

886
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,039
old and uh he remembered the whole

887
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:19,440
sequence of events under investigation

888
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:21,440
and after was over the first words out

889
00:30:25,269 --> 00:30:22,640
of his mouth were

890
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:25,279
that was real and there was no doubt in

891
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:26,960
his mind whatsoever and we just went

892
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:28,799
from there

893
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:31,440
but if he was seeing a conventional

894
00:30:34,389 --> 00:30:33,200
therapist who didn't wasn't necessarily

895
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:34,399
familiar with this

896
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:36,640
i've had patients who've done that and

897
00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:38,320
they have left the therapist because

898
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:40,480
the the client was sure it was real and

899
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:42,000
the therapist was sure

900
00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:43,600
it was not real and even though they

901
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:45,120
were working on other issues that

902
00:30:48,389 --> 00:30:47,120
created a crisis of trust a loss of

903
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:48,399
trust and they split it was very

904
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:49,520
traumatic

905
00:30:55,269 --> 00:30:52,559
the few abductees that i've you know

906
00:30:56,389 --> 00:30:55,279
followed over a long time that being

907
00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:56,399
just several years

908
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:57,760
that's all as long as i've been

909
00:31:01,830 --> 00:31:00,000
interested in this uh i've

910
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,840
talked to some who switched back and

911
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:03,279
forth a couple times i don't know if you

912
00:31:05,909 --> 00:31:04,399
see that oh absolutely

913
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:05,919
they'd start off saying yes it must have

914
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:07,279
felt real they'd walk out of your office

915
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:08,559
and think about it for a couple of weeks

916
00:31:11,269 --> 00:31:09,919
and they'd say oh no that couldn't have

917
00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:11,279
been real

918
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:14,000
i think that we we cannot overestimate

919
00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:15,679
the power of denial and the need for

920
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:16,399
denial

921
00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:17,840
that's on the part i understand the

922
00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:20,799
skeptics i understand

923
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:22,960
all the way down to the abductee himself

924
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,799
or herself the basic need

925
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:26,640
to put this on some shelf this cannot

926
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:27,840
have happened and one of the most

927
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:29,440
dramatic things that occurs

928
00:31:35,029 --> 00:31:33,200
all the time to me is when there is some

929
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:35,039
bit of evidence or something that the

930
00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:37,120
advocate realizes is

931
00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:40,000
uh confirmatory of the the truth of

932
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:41,519
their experience for instance

933
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:44,960
someone in a couple of cases have drawn

934
00:31:48,149 --> 00:31:46,880
exactly the same notational symbols that

935
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,159
they've seen inside the ship as

936
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:50,320
as my subject did when the subject was

937
00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:51,840
shown the other person's

938
00:31:55,750 --> 00:31:53,600
drawing which i've done twice now

939
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:55,760
probably incorrectly

940
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:58,080
uh that person both those people burst

941
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:58,880
into tears

942
00:32:02,710 --> 00:32:01,200
they could not handle the fact that

943
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:02,720
their

944
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:06,960
to deny had been taken away from them

945
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:09,600
this is disruptive of the entire fabric

946
00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:11,039
of society

947
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:14,320
as we know it and it's there is a reason

948
00:32:17,909 --> 00:32:16,159
to deny it from every single solitary

949
00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:17,919
perspective especially the perspective

950
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:19,039
of the people who are having these

951
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:20,080
experiences

952
00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:22,720
many uh abductees gave us a very clear

953
00:32:26,830 --> 00:32:24,559
message during this conference

954
00:32:27,909 --> 00:32:26,840
and they would prefer to be crazy as

955
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:27,919
opposed to

956
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:31,039
experience all of which brings about the

957
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:32,720
it brings us back to the importance of a

958
00:32:37,509 --> 00:32:34,720
conference like this and informing

959
00:32:39,029 --> 00:32:37,519
the therapeutic community of just what

960
00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:39,039
might be out there

961
00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:41,840
i'll look for it and not misdiagnose it

962
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:44,000
i i can't think of anything more

963
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,080
horrifying than the some of the stories

964
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:48,000
i've heard about

965
00:32:52,710 --> 00:32:50,320
the experience being drugged or even

966
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:52,720
committed

967
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:54,880
because no one recognized what might

968
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:56,640
really be going on

969
00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:58,880
i want to interject a brief cautionary

970
00:33:01,190 --> 00:33:00,720
note here not that i'm i'm arguing

971
00:33:03,509 --> 00:33:01,200
against

972
00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:03,519
the reality of this particularly but one

973
00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:05,039
of the things that my eyes

974
00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:08,240
certainly were opened up by you know our

975
00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:10,240
organizing this thing together and then

976
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:11,600
hearing the speakers

977
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:13,600
was the fact that there are these other

978
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:14,960
mental

979
00:33:22,389 --> 00:33:19,200
well excuse me in the case of uh

980
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:22,399
the ritual abuse you you have

981
00:33:27,669 --> 00:33:26,240
a lot of the same kinds of things

982
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:27,679
multiple personality personality

983
00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:28,960
disorders that result from these

984
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:30,880
experiences of people drawing pictures

985
00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:32,000
that

986
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:34,559
look extremely similar and then you have

987
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:36,480
a large fraction of the community

988
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:39,360
investigating them saying with that

989
00:33:44,310 --> 00:33:40,960
these aren't real experiences

990
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:44,320
you know so uh there are these parallels

991
00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:46,000
i used to think that when you had two

992
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:47,440
independent people who

993
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:48,960
drew the same picture well there must be

994
00:33:53,909 --> 00:33:51,039
some real cause for that and

995
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:53,919
now i don't feel that way so strongly

996
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:54,240
one

997
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:55,679
i don't understand why don't you feel so

998
00:33:59,190 --> 00:33:57,840
strongly because in the case of the

999
00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:59,200
ritual abuse

1000
00:34:02,230 --> 00:34:01,440
i mean the picture shown by different

1001
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:02,240
people

1002
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,919
you know just how they were held down

1003
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:05,440
and so on and so forth

1004
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:06,720
you know where the bottle of blood was

1005
00:34:11,829 --> 00:34:08,720
and stuff like that they're very similar

1006
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:11,839
those pictures and and uh yet there are

1007
00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:12,879
people who argue

1008
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:14,560
quite cogently they were here at the

1009
00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:17,280
conference that these experiences

1010
00:34:21,990 --> 00:34:20,560
did not actually and so

1011
00:34:23,430 --> 00:34:22,000
and then there are the business of some

1012
00:34:24,869 --> 00:34:23,440
of the people in the ritual abuse groups

1013
00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:24,879
having shared

1014
00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:29,760
uh shared dreams too so i don't know

1015
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:32,159
it's just i don't know where that how

1016
00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:33,520
that fits into this

1017
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:35,280
but it is disturbing yeah but it is

1018
00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:37,359
disturbing there is one thing that has

1019
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:38,800
to be remembered though

1020
00:34:43,270 --> 00:34:41,280
you can start finding parallels between

1021
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:43,280
abductions and a lot of other phenomena

1022
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:45,919
and at a level of abstraction it'll work

1023
00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:46,720
quite well

1024
00:34:49,829 --> 00:34:48,879
but when you start getting down to

1025
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:49,839
looking at it

1026
00:34:54,149 --> 00:34:53,040
case by case and very carefully you

1027
00:34:57,990 --> 00:34:54,159
begin to see

1028
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:58,000
certain consistent differences the the

1029
00:35:01,990 --> 00:35:01,280
shamanic initiation phenomenon has often

1030
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:02,000
been cited

1031
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:04,640
as a direct parallel and yes but you can

1032
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:06,000
find all kinds of

1033
00:35:10,550 --> 00:35:08,960
of uh points of similarity but there are

1034
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:10,560
also some very significant

1035
00:35:14,310 --> 00:35:13,359
differences and there does seem to be

1036
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:14,320
overall

1037
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:18,720
in that that core abduction phenomenon a

1038
00:35:23,270 --> 00:35:20,640
coherency

1039
00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:23,280
that's that's somehow qualitatively

1040
00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:24,640
different

1041
00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:27,359
i don't i would also uh along the lines

1042
00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:28,000
you're saying

1043
00:35:34,069 --> 00:35:31,200
say that the fact that you often see uh

1044
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:34,079
multiple witnesses uh to some events

1045
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:36,160
that are corroboratory at the beginning

1046
00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:37,839
of the experience

1047
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:40,000
of you know several people see the ufo

1048
00:35:44,069 --> 00:35:41,839
and

1049
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:44,079
indicate that this one has seems to have

1050
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:45,200
more power bringing

1051
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:47,200
several people together in a

1052
00:35:51,670 --> 00:35:49,680
testimonially documented fashion

1053
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:51,680
and not just abuse right and not just at

1054
00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:53,200
the beginning

1055
00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:55,040
if you take a case like barney and betty

1056
00:35:59,750 --> 00:35:57,440
hill they had complementary

1057
00:36:02,230 --> 00:35:59,760
abductions some people have said that

1058
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:02,240
okay barney picked up betty's dreams

1059
00:36:07,750 --> 00:36:05,760
but why was his internal experiences

1060
00:36:09,349 --> 00:36:07,760
complementary to hers and not identical

1061
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:09,359
to her

1062
00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:11,440
one of the important ideas that came out

1063
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:12,400
of this for me

1064
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:14,560
crystallization of an idea was the idea

1065
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:15,680
of clustering

1066
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:18,960
that some that that we may be dealing

1067
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:21,280
with a group of clusters of phenomena

1068
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:23,280
that as you say have certain parallels

1069
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:24,880
at a level of abstraction but when you

1070
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:26,640
get past that level of abstraction they

1071
00:36:28,790 --> 00:36:27,920
actually separate out into distinct

1072
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:28,800
events

1073
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:30,640
but from the point of view of a

1074
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,160
therapist or an investigator that is

1075
00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:34,079
seeing somebody cold off the street

1076
00:36:36,870 --> 00:36:35,839
they've had an experience that's beyond

1077
00:36:38,230 --> 00:36:36,880
their conception

1078
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:38,240
they haven't done all the reading into

1079
00:36:42,390 --> 00:36:40,640
shamanic rituals uh

1080
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:42,400
satanic ritual abuse abductions and a

1081
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:44,079
host of other things so

1082
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:45,839
they what what probably ends up

1083
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:47,520
happening is that they

1084
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:49,839
identify with the closest parallel that

1085
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:50,960
they encounter first

1086
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:52,240
and then they end up presenting to a

1087
00:36:55,990 --> 00:36:54,000
worker in that field and it's the

1088
00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:56,000
responsibility of each worker in those

1089
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:57,760
fields that share certain parallels to

1090
00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:59,040
educate themselves

1091
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:02,000
about all the clusters to be able to to

1092
00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:04,480
redirect the person appropriately

1093
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:06,400
yeah i couldn't agree more and one thing

1094
00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:07,680
that came out in this

1095
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:09,920
conference was that there does seem to

1096
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:13,200
be a variety of causes that may have

1097
00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:15,920
you know cause have similar effects on

1098
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:16,880
people

1099
00:37:21,829 --> 00:37:19,680
and i i don't envy the therapist's

1100
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:21,839
position of having to try and sort out

1101
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:22,640
the

1102
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:25,440
you know as it may be necessary to do in

1103
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:26,960
some cases

1104
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:29,119
given these various complications that

1105
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:31,440
arise let's talk a little bit more about

1106
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:32,400
the

1107
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:35,359
team team concept of investigation i

1108
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:36,800
assume most of you

1109
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:38,800
agree with that general notion if you

1110
00:37:42,310 --> 00:37:41,040
don't feel free to say so

1111
00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:42,320
what would be some of your

1112
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:44,160
recommendations for

1113
00:37:55,190 --> 00:37:52,710
anybody well

1114
00:37:56,069 --> 00:37:55,200
that's a very difficult question to

1115
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:56,079
answer

1116
00:38:04,950 --> 00:37:59,839
there should

1117
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:04,960
psychotherapeutically trained resources

1118
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:08,480
investigative resources and experience

1119
00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:09,760
certain resources

1120
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:11,440
and so many of the people that i've

1121
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:13,280
worked with one of the first

1122
00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:15,520
questions first question it almost

1123
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:16,880
always comes up is

1124
00:38:20,870 --> 00:38:18,480
can i talk to other people that have had

1125
00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:20,880
this experience so these are basic

1126
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:22,240
resources that i think should be

1127
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:22,960
available

1128
00:38:26,069 --> 00:38:24,480
the order in which they're used in the

1129
00:38:27,829 --> 00:38:26,079
proportion in which they're used

1130
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:27,839
is a very difficult question i think

1131
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:29,040
it's part of what we're all still

1132
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:30,560
debating

1133
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:32,400
i can add to that in terms of talking

1134
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:33,680
about the integration

1135
00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:36,800
of those resources the

1136
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:38,960
therapist who's interested in helping

1137
00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:40,720
may be lacking a great deal in the

1138
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:42,480
knowledge of the phenomenon

1139
00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:44,560
and needs that from the investigator

1140
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:46,160
investigators lacking in the

1141
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:46,960
understanding

1142
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:49,839
emotional trauma and the sensitivity and

1143
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:52,160
timing of such interventions to resolve

1144
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:52,960
it

1145
00:38:57,510 --> 00:38:55,680
or even what even causes such symptoms

1146
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:57,520
and

1147
00:39:02,069 --> 00:39:00,480
the experience experiencer can be there

1148
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:02,079
as the support person well actually

1149
00:39:06,470 --> 00:39:04,000
everybody ends up being a support person

1150
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:06,480
but at least they have that unique

1151
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:07,440
perspective

1152
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:11,680
which those of us assume we don't have

1153
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:14,400
and you blend those together nicely with

1154
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:16,160
the therapist basically retaining

1155
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:18,640
control during hypnosis sessions but

1156
00:39:21,910 --> 00:39:21,040
getting information from the others and

1157
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:21,920
then

1158
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:24,720
as bud mentioned earlier the others can

1159
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:26,880
become support persons

1160
00:39:32,230 --> 00:39:29,520
it happens anyway so you might as well

1161
00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:32,240
organize it that way

1162
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:34,560
well i just think one of the uh

1163
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:36,720
situations when it was described

1164
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:38,800
that a team should be working with one

1165
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:41,040
person a therapist investigator

1166
00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:43,839
and uh an experiencer absolutely

1167
00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:45,040
whatever you want to say

1168
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:46,800
uh i would have added to that of course

1169
00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:48,240
that's ideally wonderful we should also

1170
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:49,680
have a radiologist

1171
00:39:53,750 --> 00:39:52,160
right that's right a lot of money and so

1172
00:39:55,829 --> 00:39:53,760
forth the help of the investigation

1173
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:55,839
the point is that we are spread

1174
00:39:59,750 --> 00:39:57,520
incredibly thinly because

1175
00:40:01,589 --> 00:39:59,760
we are facing a gigantic problem with

1176
00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:01,599
enormous numbers of people who are

1177
00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:03,119
crying for help and are very very

1178
00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:04,160
confused

1179
00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:05,839
we do the best we can with the resources

1180
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:07,520
we have and the very nature of

1181
00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:10,720
a meeting such as this was uh

1182
00:40:15,190 --> 00:40:13,920
as this kind of subtext uh the idea that

1183
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:15,200
we're

1184
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:18,480
conference to

1185
00:40:24,550 --> 00:40:21,760
put their own bodies on the line and uh

1186
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:24,560
begin to aid in the investigation this

1187
00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:25,200
problem

1188
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:28,079
it's it's almost a luxury to sit around

1189
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:29,680
and talk about what would be ideal when

1190
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:30,160
i'm sure

1191
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:33,200
we have now the resources are so thin

1192
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:37,040
and we're so strained that

1193
00:40:40,870 --> 00:40:39,280
just if we could triple what we have

1194
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:40,880
right now it would just be a

1195
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:44,240
mere beginning well bud it's not only

1196
00:40:48,870 --> 00:40:46,319
ideal it's exactly the way i've operated

1197
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:48,880
the last three years so it's entirely

1198
00:40:55,670 --> 00:40:52,000
possible i i think it's time and i agree

1199
00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:55,680
with you on the flood of needs that are

1200
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:56,880
coming at us

1201
00:41:01,829 --> 00:41:00,079
it's time we train more because we don't

1202
00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:01,839
have a hundred bud hopkins we need a

1203
00:41:05,829 --> 00:41:04,000
hundred bud hopkins but we need

1204
00:41:07,990 --> 00:41:05,839
to really bring in people and really

1205
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:08,000
start training them exactly

1206
00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:10,720
and then we have to somehow systematize

1207
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:11,760
the referral

1208
00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:14,000
training and getting everyone together

1209
00:41:17,349 --> 00:41:15,520
out there too and uh

1210
00:41:19,109 --> 00:41:17,359
get rid of these big boxes of letters

1211
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:19,119
you guys have

1212
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:21,040
right now we have to work out a series

1213
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:22,960
of protocols so that when a person comes

1214
00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:23,440
to us

1215
00:41:26,950 --> 00:41:25,280
and says something might have happened a

1216
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:26,960
whole set of procedures can be set in

1217
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:29,119
motion leading ultimately to

1218
00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:30,880
treatment investigation and everything

1219
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:32,079
and right now people are just sort of

1220
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:33,760
doing it as best they can

1221
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:35,920
sometimes in your case it works out well

1222
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:36,960
for other cases

1223
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:38,400
people just have to do it alone some

1224
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:40,400
people have some support some don't

1225
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:42,960
it's a situation that's not ideal but as

1226
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:44,240
bud says

1227
00:41:47,589 --> 00:41:46,000
and as you're saying essentially we need

1228
00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:47,599
to train more people we need to get more

1229
00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:48,079
help

1230
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:49,920
and i think that that's going to come i

1231
00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:51,440
think that almost

1232
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:53,200
all the time we have people coming

1233
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:55,200
forward offering to help and offering to

1234
00:41:59,349 --> 00:41:56,079
do more things and

1235
00:42:03,750 --> 00:41:59,359
i'm fairly optimistic about this

1236
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:03,760
anybody else i don't know how

1237
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:05,040
i think this has some degree of

1238
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:06,480
importance in the overall scheme of

1239
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:08,240
things it's a it's a side point to what

1240
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:09,599
you mentioned but you went off

1241
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:11,040
probably more important and immediate

1242
00:42:15,349 --> 00:42:13,040
direction

1243
00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:15,359
i i believe myself at least to be a

1244
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:17,440
non-experiencer that is nothing unusual

1245
00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:19,760
has ever really happened to me i have a

1246
00:42:22,550 --> 00:42:21,040
great sympathy for what these people are

1247
00:42:23,670 --> 00:42:22,560
going through yet there is a point

1248
00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:23,680
beyond which i just

1249
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:25,920
cannot really understand because it's

1250
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:28,160
beyond our consensus reality

1251
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:30,000
on the other hand one of the advantages

1252
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:33,040
of that is a certain objectivity

1253
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:35,680
and it's also a kind of groundedness

1254
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:37,680
that is

1255
00:42:41,270 --> 00:42:39,359
i encourage people to explore their

1256
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:41,280
experiences fully and to come to terms

1257
00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:42,400
with it but i'm also

1258
00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:45,119
in some ways kind of a reminder that a

1259
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:46,560
lot of their immediate life is still

1260
00:42:49,589 --> 00:42:47,200
back here

1261
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:49,599
in this realm and i find that in the

1262
00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:51,359
dynamics that go on in my work that

1263
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:52,560
provides a really nice

1264
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:55,040
balance so i think somehow we also have

1265
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:56,720
to integrate that into the overall

1266
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:57,760
process

1267
00:43:01,510 --> 00:43:00,720
it's almost as if all of us are

1268
00:43:03,430 --> 00:43:01,520
adjusting

1269
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:03,440
i mean we focus on them as making

1270
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,800
adjustments but we are making

1271
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:06,480
adjustments as well

1272
00:43:11,190 --> 00:43:08,480
and it's it's almost like a grieving

1273
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:11,200
process of what we have always known

1274
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:14,240
we have lost that and we are having to

1275
00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:15,359
go through the different

1276
00:43:20,470 --> 00:43:18,640
phases of grieving that and accepting

1277
00:43:22,550 --> 00:43:20,480
a whole new way of looking at things

1278
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:22,560
which abductees in many cases are well

1279
00:43:27,589 --> 00:43:24,560
ahead of us

1280
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,599
i think that uh just a second what

1281
00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:29,760
david just said about reminding the

1282
00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:31,440
people about where their real life

1283
00:43:34,790 --> 00:43:34,400
lies part of my whole approach to what i

1284
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:34,800
do

1285
00:43:39,349 --> 00:43:37,440
when i work with people is that very

1286
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:39,359
thing to point out that

1287
00:43:44,309 --> 00:43:42,720
that we spend 99.999 at whatever percent

1288
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:44,319
of our life here on this earth no matter

1289
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:44,880
what

1290
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,480
strange things are happening um and

1291
00:43:51,990 --> 00:43:50,400
in order to accent that and i have a

1292
00:43:58,630 --> 00:43:52,000
support group

1293
00:44:01,750 --> 00:43:58,640
roughly uh 50 party

1294
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:01,760
and 50 uh discussing issues

1295
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:04,000
because the party aspect of it to feel

1296
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:05,520
that you can be with other people

1297
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:07,200
have the same crazy experience as you've

1298
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:08,960
had and yet those people are interesting

1299
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:10,720
and intelligent and fun to talk to

1300
00:44:14,309 --> 00:44:12,160
and you can sit around with a glass of

1301
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:14,319
wine or a cup of coffee and

1302
00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:16,800
be a real alive human being in a real

1303
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:18,880
life community

1304
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,400
where you're accepted is extremely

1305
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:22,720
important and i don't

1306
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:24,720
ever try to focus the support group

1307
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:25,920
thing in terms of

1308
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:27,520
just even amount of maximum amount of

1309
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:29,839
time on to the ufo subject

1310
00:44:33,109 --> 00:44:31,520
i think that this groundedness is one of

1311
00:44:33,990 --> 00:44:33,119
the most important therapeutic things we

1312
00:44:35,589 --> 00:44:34,000
can do it doesn't

1313
00:44:37,109 --> 00:44:35,599
it doesn't take a therapist to help

1314
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:37,119
somebody have a nice time in the real

1315
00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:37,920
world

1316
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:41,040
with some companions who you can come to

1317
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:42,240
love and respect

1318
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:48,950
okay um let's talk a little while

1319
00:44:53,109 --> 00:44:51,520
now about what's next on the agenda

1320
00:44:54,309 --> 00:44:53,119
where do we go from here what's what's

1321
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:54,319
the state of the art

1322
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,400
and in that same context suppose there

1323
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:58,160
are people watching this

1324
00:45:07,190 --> 00:45:01,200
who may be experiencers if anybody has

1325
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:08,550
interject something a little bit ahead

1326
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:11,040
of that okay because i wanted to discuss

1327
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:13,200
what to me was one of the important

1328
00:45:15,990 --> 00:45:14,240
outcomes or

1329
00:45:17,349 --> 00:45:16,000
realizations i think of many people at

1330
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:17,359
the conference

1331
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:20,000
and that uh which also has its antidote

1332
00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:20,640
and that is

1333
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:24,000
that you know it seems from the roper

1334
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:25,359
poll that a lot of people have

1335
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:28,240
symptoms that are associated in reverse

1336
00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:29,119
direction

1337
00:45:35,109 --> 00:45:32,720
with being an experiencer and

1338
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:35,119
there are a couple of studies with very

1339
00:45:38,309 --> 00:45:36,160
low statistics

1340
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:38,319
presented that indicate that these may

1341
00:45:42,069 --> 00:45:39,599
be used as

1342
00:45:43,349 --> 00:45:42,079
questions some of the questions like the

1343
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:43,359
ones in the rooker poll

1344
00:45:46,470 --> 00:45:46,160
may be in fact used to pull out people

1345
00:45:49,109 --> 00:45:46,480
who

1346
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:49,119
are experiencers and this uh on the one

1347
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:49,520
hand

1348
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:51,280
indicates that the fraction of

1349
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:53,040
experiences in the general population is

1350
00:45:56,830 --> 00:45:55,040
tremendously high maybe in the low

1351
00:45:58,230 --> 00:45:56,840
percent level

1352
00:46:00,470 --> 00:45:58,240
[Music]

1353
00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:00,480
and now that cuts both ways the first

1354
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:01,680
way it cuts is

1355
00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:03,520
it means that the sample of people we've

1356
00:46:06,470 --> 00:46:05,119
gotten are only 1 000

1357
00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:06,480
the tip of the tip of the tip of the

1358
00:46:09,670 --> 00:46:08,000
iceberg and so the way that we've

1359
00:46:11,430 --> 00:46:09,680
selected them inadvertently or the way

1360
00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:11,440
they selected themselves

1361
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:14,560
is is a tremendous possible source of

1362
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:15,520
bias

1363
00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:17,920
on what's really out there on the other

1364
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:18,560
hand

1365
00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:22,079
the fact that this is such a prevalent

1366
00:46:26,309 --> 00:46:24,560
seems to be such a prevalent thing in

1367
00:46:27,430 --> 00:46:26,319
the general population means that we can

1368
00:46:30,309 --> 00:46:27,440
select

1369
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:30,319
people uh in a very unbiased way we can

1370
00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:31,839
go out and search them out for instance

1371
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:33,040
the people who responded

1372
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:34,319
with four or five positives in the

1373
00:46:37,030 --> 00:46:36,480
broker poll and i think it's clear that

1374
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:37,040
uh

1375
00:46:41,109 --> 00:46:38,640
these people should be followed up and

1376
00:46:44,309 --> 00:46:41,119
they will be followed up even given the

1377
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:44,319
tremendous overload that we have among

1378
00:46:48,630 --> 00:46:45,920
the investigators and therapists yes

1379
00:46:51,349 --> 00:46:48,640
but given that they uh often do this on

1380
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:51,359
their own timetable how is that going to

1381
00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:52,880
affect things if you go out and start

1382
00:46:57,510 --> 00:46:54,720
trying to push them into the other

1383
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:57,520
now you you have to wait until they see

1384
00:47:01,349 --> 00:46:59,280
or feel a need

1385
00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:01,359
uh to explore it right they may have

1386
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:02,720
these symptoms but they may not want to

1387
00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:03,839
do anything about that that's right

1388
00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:05,520
oh certainly not a number of them

1389
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:07,520
indicated in the poll that they're

1390
00:47:10,950 --> 00:47:09,040
willing to be followed up so you can

1391
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:10,960
follow up and explore this issue okay

1392
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:12,720
yeah i would share your view that you

1393
00:47:16,390 --> 00:47:14,000
shouldn't push anyone into

1394
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:16,400
therapy or or investigation it doesn't

1395
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:17,920
yeah i certainly agree with that

1396
00:47:20,870 --> 00:47:19,359
i i think that the next thing that has

1397
00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:20,880
to be done however and one of the more

1398
00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:22,240
important ideas that i've gotten from

1399
00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:24,160
the conference is that we must have a

1400
00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:26,240
standardization in methodology

1401
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:28,160
methodology and in treatment

1402
00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:30,160
that is agreed upon by by most people

1403
00:47:33,829 --> 00:47:32,240
who do this sort of work

1404
00:47:35,589 --> 00:47:33,839
i think that this is extremely important

1405
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:35,599
so that we can learn what the parameters

1406
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:36,880
of this phenomenon

1407
00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:38,640
are and also so we can learn the proper

1408
00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:40,480
modes of treatment

1409
00:47:44,549 --> 00:47:42,960
i think this is coming but uh right now

1410
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:44,559
we still have an awful lot of work to do

1411
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:45,760
with that

1412
00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:47,520
and uh of course we also need as we

1413
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,960
mentioned before we need to simply

1414
00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:50,720
enlist more people in doing this and

1415
00:47:53,589 --> 00:47:52,240
the royal proposed study has shown that

1416
00:47:54,150 --> 00:47:53,599
there's an awful lot of therapists out

1417
00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:54,160
there

1418
00:47:57,430 --> 00:47:55,760
who are willing to donate their time

1419
00:47:58,309 --> 00:47:57,440
it's at least to look look into it

1420
00:47:59,430 --> 00:47:58,319
further and

1421
00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:59,440
we hope that we'll be able to get a

1422
00:48:02,549 --> 00:48:00,880
significant number of them who will

1423
00:48:03,190 --> 00:48:02,559
actually engage in this kind of work and

1424
00:48:06,549 --> 00:48:03,200
so

1425
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:06,559
we're quite optimistic about that part

1426
00:48:15,349 --> 00:48:13,510
aspects of the conference which i

1427
00:48:19,109 --> 00:48:15,359
suggested

1428
00:48:22,309 --> 00:48:19,119
a bit of a problem to me is uh

1429
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:23,990
a tendency from time to time to slip

1430
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:25,680
into discussions

1431
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:28,079
of the nature of the aliens quote

1432
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:29,760
unquote whatever they may be

1433
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:32,400
as to whether they're helping us or

1434
00:48:34,790 --> 00:48:32,960
hurting us

1435
00:48:36,549 --> 00:48:34,800
the good guys versus bad guys guys

1436
00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:36,559
versus the bad guys and so forth

1437
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:39,200
and of course i think essentially that

1438
00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:41,280
gets into almost a kind of theological

1439
00:48:44,549 --> 00:48:42,160
argument

1440
00:48:46,549 --> 00:48:44,559
and i think we must concentrate our

1441
00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:46,559
attention on what is happening to

1442
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:49,280
human beings and help them explore their

1443
00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:51,040
own personal experiences

1444
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:54,400
because i think if you if you start

1445
00:48:57,510 --> 00:48:56,319
dealing with whether or not you have

1446
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,520
been

1447
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:59,280
these are enemies these are friends or

1448
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:00,640
whatever

1449
00:49:04,069 --> 00:49:02,640
you're providing yourself with either

1450
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:04,079
food for paranoia or some kind of

1451
00:49:08,470 --> 00:49:05,440
rationalizations

1452
00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:08,480
uh that can feed a certain kind of

1453
00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:09,119
denial

1454
00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:10,559
we've got to get people i think away

1455
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:13,040
from those judgments

1456
00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:14,720
what happens when it's the experiencers

1457
00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:16,240
who make that judgment though we see

1458
00:49:18,790 --> 00:49:17,040
that happening

1459
00:49:22,630 --> 00:49:18,800
i think that i think that one of the

1460
00:49:29,750 --> 00:49:26,230
the investigator

1461
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:29,760
or and or therapist involved

1462
00:49:34,549 --> 00:49:32,160
can have an undue influence in that area

1463
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:34,559
and i've i think we've seen examples

1464
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:37,680
at the conference i have of feeling a

1465
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:38,720
certain sort of

1466
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:42,319
theological line being

1467
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:45,359
paid out by a therapist investigator or

1468
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:46,720
whatnot

1469
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:50,240
which i think is not

1470
00:49:54,069 --> 00:49:52,240
in other words it's almost as if they're

1471
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:54,079
trying to decide the nature

1472
00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:58,400
and moral qualities of the germs without

1473
00:50:01,829 --> 00:50:01,359
trying to figure out what the disease is

1474
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:01,839
this is

1475
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:05,680
it

1476
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:10,000
investigator versus therapist depending

1477
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,520
on how you want to define those terms

1478
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:13,200
and the balance between

1479
00:50:16,470 --> 00:50:15,520
when do you have enough information

1480
00:50:18,069 --> 00:50:16,480
versus

1481
00:50:19,430 --> 00:50:18,079
which is what the investigator wants the

1482
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:19,440
investigator wants complete information

1483
00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:21,280
and the therapist primary goal is to

1484
00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:21,920
return

1485
00:50:25,270 --> 00:50:24,240
the patient to a state of emotional

1486
00:50:27,109 --> 00:50:25,280
stability

1487
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:27,119
and if one is working a case through to

1488
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:28,800
a certain point and

1489
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:30,480
psychologically there appears to be a

1490
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:32,880
calm and a resolution

1491
00:50:36,230 --> 00:50:35,599
but one may not have a a full corpus of

1492
00:50:39,349 --> 00:50:36,240
data

1493
00:50:42,150 --> 00:50:39,359
then what do you do now as a therapist

1494
00:50:43,589 --> 00:50:42,160
my primary obligation is to maintain

1495
00:50:45,589 --> 00:50:43,599
their health it may be

1496
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:45,599
it is conceivable that we have not

1497
00:50:48,950 --> 00:50:47,200
worked through the full body of material

1498
00:50:51,670 --> 00:50:48,960
but perhaps we have reached a plateau

1499
00:50:54,150 --> 00:50:51,680
for that person at that time

1500
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:54,160
to force it through that's a that's

1501
00:50:56,549 --> 00:50:55,760
that's a difficult decision and most of

1502
00:50:58,150 --> 00:50:56,559
the time

1503
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:58,160
actually i don't do it because i still

1504
00:51:01,670 --> 00:51:00,480
know with with certainty so little about

1505
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:01,680
it but they know

1506
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:03,359
that i'm available for them whether it's

1507
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:05,200
in a month or six months or a year i'm

1508
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:05,920
still there

1509
00:51:09,190 --> 00:51:07,200
right so i don't really care how long

1510
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:09,200
the investigation takes i agree

1511
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:11,280
david i don't think anybody wants to

1512
00:51:14,069 --> 00:51:12,400
force somebody to

1513
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:14,079
sure through to anything i mean and i'm

1514
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:16,400
not i'm fine to think about that i know

1515
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:18,480
uh we don't have the time for that but i

1516
00:51:23,670 --> 00:51:21,200
think that uh

1517
00:51:25,670 --> 00:51:23,680
that the the biggest cloud on the

1518
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:25,680
horizon actually as i see it

1519
00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:28,400
uh is a kind of theological argument

1520
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:29,040
which is

1521
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:31,440
i think essentially a waste of time yeah

1522
00:51:34,710 --> 00:51:32,800
it misses

1523
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:34,720
the point all the way around that's the

1524
00:51:38,069 --> 00:51:36,240
way the experiencers

1525
00:51:39,430 --> 00:51:38,079
and or certain ones of them seem to be

1526
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:39,440
taking it to them

1527
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:41,520
it's beginning to be a profound

1528
00:51:45,510 --> 00:51:43,839
philosophical or religious issue so they

1529
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:45,520
are they are introducing perhaps that's

1530
00:51:49,829 --> 00:51:48,000
a method of their coping now it is

1531
00:51:51,829 --> 00:51:49,839
they choose that and it works for them

1532
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:51,839
and it doesn't hurt them or anybody else

1533
00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:52,800
it's okay no i

1534
00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:56,400
agree with that you know i one of the

1535
00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:58,880
i want to ask a question here about dave

1536
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:59,760
really

1537
00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:01,520
one of the things that i've observed in

1538
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:03,200
the difference between

1539
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:05,520
investigators and therapists or i don't

1540
00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:06,960
want to paint that black

1541
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:09,680
between those two different uh logical

1542
00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:10,720
systems

1543
00:52:14,870 --> 00:52:14,240
is the difference in what is perceived

1544
00:52:18,150 --> 00:52:14,880
as

1545
00:52:18,390 --> 00:52:18,160
progress or truth to the investigator

1546
00:52:24,390 --> 00:52:18,400
it's

1547
00:52:25,109 --> 00:52:24,400
to the therapist many times it seems to

1548
00:52:28,230 --> 00:52:25,119
be

1549
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:28,240
a a big change in how the person

1550
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:31,040
relates to the phenomena now in your

1551
00:52:34,630 --> 00:52:32,160
work do you feel

1552
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:34,640
that uh lines of investigation or

1553
00:52:39,589 --> 00:52:36,480
approach to a more neutral word

1554
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,599
that result in a change

1555
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:41,520
significant change in how the person

1556
00:52:44,230 --> 00:52:42,960
views the experience would you regard

1557
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:44,240
that as something to

1558
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:46,240
be encouraged or stay away from or a

1559
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:47,520
positive indicator that you're on the

1560
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:48,640
right track or do you think this

1561
00:52:52,549 --> 00:52:50,160
indication you're beginning to

1562
00:52:53,430 --> 00:52:52,559
relieve these mislead these people in

1563
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:53,440
religious ways

1564
00:52:57,349 --> 00:52:56,160
uh well i i don't uh try to lead them

1565
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:57,359
into any view of their

1566
00:53:00,790 --> 00:52:59,520
of of the nature of the experience we

1567
00:53:01,349 --> 00:53:00,800
just try to uncover what actually

1568
00:53:03,990 --> 00:53:01,359
happened

1569
00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:04,000
right i don't care what do and when i

1570
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:05,599
have a support group meeting one of the

1571
00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:06,640
things i have to do is

1572
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:08,559
to some extent referee between people

1573
00:53:11,750 --> 00:53:10,640
who want to break the next of the aliens

1574
00:53:13,109 --> 00:53:11,760
and other people who feel they've had

1575
00:53:13,750 --> 00:53:13,119
some kind of spiritual growth as a

1576
00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:13,760
result

1577
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:15,280
and it's fine by me i don't care which

1578
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:17,280
ones but

1579
00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:20,400
the point is the uh it's an argument

1580
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:20,720
that

1581
00:53:27,510 --> 00:53:24,720
resolution but of course i've

1582
00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:27,520
i'm feeling very often that people who

1583
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,000
have come

1584
00:53:31,589 --> 00:53:30,400
to a very very positive view of the

1585
00:53:34,069 --> 00:53:31,599
experience

1586
00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:34,079
uh have just uh in a certain sense

1587
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:35,920
constructed the silver lining

1588
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:38,240
which is perhaps postponing the true

1589
00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:39,839
effect of the disillusionment that's

1590
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,800
bound to come

1591
00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:42,640
and the problems and so on so i see it

1592
00:53:45,510 --> 00:53:43,920
as in a certain sense

1593
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:45,520
a problem of therapy that's right i

1594
00:53:47,829 --> 00:53:46,800
think i think what you're saying and

1595
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:47,839
what i find also

1596
00:53:53,670 --> 00:53:51,119
is that uh to me uh

1597
00:53:54,630 --> 00:53:53,680
however the the abductee handles it is

1598
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:54,640
up to the

1599
00:53:57,750 --> 00:53:56,400
to the circumstances and the background

1600
00:53:59,750 --> 00:53:57,760
and the upbringing of the abductee and

1601
00:54:01,990 --> 00:53:59,760
whatever works for them is the best way

1602
00:54:03,829 --> 00:54:02,000
and we'll work with that um as long as

1603
00:54:06,150 --> 00:54:03,839
it brings uh relief and

1604
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:06,160
and some sort of therapeutic value the

1605
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:07,680
danger is having the

1606
00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:10,559
therapist or the investigator have a

1607
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:12,720
structure of his or her own that they

1608
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:16,079
overlay on the experience and sort of

1609
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:17,599
steer the abductee

1610
00:54:22,630 --> 00:54:21,200
into that that structure and that has a

1611
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:22,640
totally different agenda

1612
00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:24,480
and that can be quite quite dangerous i

1613
00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:25,920
think they're going to try to tear them

1614
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:26,800
away from yeah

1615
00:54:29,990 --> 00:54:29,280
oh yeah right a very very quick example

1616
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:30,000
of something i

1617
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:34,160
was horrified was uh one man who

1618
00:54:39,190 --> 00:54:37,520
was a therapist who insisted that uh

1619
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:39,200
aliens were much more trustworthy than

1620
00:54:42,470 --> 00:54:41,200
human beings and that one of his ritual

1621
00:54:45,190 --> 00:54:42,480
things he tells

1622
00:54:46,549 --> 00:54:45,200
a new uh advocate he was working with or

1623
00:54:49,109 --> 00:54:46,559
experience it or whatever

1624
00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:49,119
uh is that he has to fill them in on the

1625
00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:50,559
government cover-up and the extent of

1626
00:54:53,190 --> 00:54:51,920
which the government is lying i thought

1627
00:54:56,309 --> 00:54:53,200
how in the world would any

1628
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:56,319
therapist feel have the nerve

1629
00:55:01,670 --> 00:54:58,000
to say that somebody has to present to

1630
00:55:04,309 --> 00:55:01,680
us to his patient or his client i mean

1631
00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:04,319
that's again almost theology that that

1632
00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:06,160
kind of a problem uh

1633
00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:09,280
is offensive but it it's not unique to

1634
00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:11,520
this phenomenon it's it comes up in

1635
00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:14,319
all kinds of therapeutic cases uh and

1636
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:15,680
it's just it's bad work

1637
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:18,160
and the problem is it's hard to find

1638
00:55:21,829 --> 00:55:19,680
good people like it's hard to find a

1639
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:21,839
good pizza in town

1640
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:23,359
but it's a problem dammit that we all

1641
00:55:27,109 --> 00:55:23,650
face

1642
00:55:28,710 --> 00:55:27,119
[Laughter]

1643
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:28,720
well from the standpoint of a data

1644
00:55:38,549 --> 00:55:35,750
the completeness of any one given case

1645
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:38,559
is not all that significant if you have

1646
00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:39,359
enough

1647
00:55:45,829 --> 00:55:43,040
cases the overall body of the thing

1648
00:55:46,309 --> 00:55:45,839
you know it'll all equal out in the end

1649
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:46,319
if

1650
00:55:49,589 --> 00:55:48,720
there is genuinely some kind of equality

1651
00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:49,599
in there

1652
00:55:54,309 --> 00:55:52,559
so you know by all means i would say

1653
00:55:57,589 --> 00:55:54,319
look out first and only for the

1654
00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:57,599
the good of the absolute right yes

1655
00:56:01,190 --> 00:55:59,760
and they don't take care of itself as

1656
00:56:03,990 --> 00:56:01,200
long as everybody

1657
00:56:04,710 --> 00:56:04,000
communicates that data because that's an

1658
00:56:06,950 --> 00:56:04,720
excellent point

1659
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:06,960
for the duty i think to who whoever is

1660
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:08,400
doing the research whether it's research

1661
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:10,000
or investigation therapy

1662
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:12,160
is for the clients or the patient in

1663
00:56:17,030 --> 00:56:13,680
front of them and their

1664
00:56:19,430 --> 00:56:17,040
their well-being is number one on the

1665
00:56:21,510 --> 00:56:19,440
on the priority list and collection of

1666
00:56:23,030 --> 00:56:21,520
data is number two and number two is in

1667
00:56:26,230 --> 00:56:23,040
a much lower

1668
00:56:28,950 --> 00:56:26,240
level i had an example of working with a

1669
00:56:30,549 --> 00:56:28,960
a 13 or 14 year old girl who was a

1670
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:30,559
born-again christian

1671
00:56:34,470 --> 00:56:34,000
who uh was in tears in shock after an

1672
00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:34,480
abduction

1673
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:36,640
she remembered consciously because she

1674
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:38,079
when she was on the table

1675
00:56:42,390 --> 00:56:40,559
and things were being done to her body

1676
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:42,400
she was praying to god to save her

1677
00:56:46,069 --> 00:56:44,799
and take her out of there and god didn't

1678
00:56:48,309 --> 00:56:46,079
save her and take her out

1679
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:48,319
and i found myself having a long long

1680
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:49,440
discussion

1681
00:56:53,510 --> 00:56:52,240
about why that should not be damaging to

1682
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:53,520
her faith because

1683
00:56:56,549 --> 00:56:54,880
i was certain that there were other

1684
00:56:59,270 --> 00:56:56,559
times she prayed for some sort of

1685
00:57:00,390 --> 00:56:59,280
deliverance that prayers one reason or

1686
00:57:02,309 --> 00:57:00,400
another had not answered

1687
00:57:03,750 --> 00:57:02,319
and here i was from the point of view of

1688
00:57:05,829 --> 00:57:03,760
someone fairly agnostic

1689
00:57:07,910 --> 00:57:05,839
and now you're the theologian to help

1690
00:57:10,950 --> 00:57:07,920
this yeah to help this young woman

1691
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:10,960
get back the support that seemed to be

1692
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:12,720
very crucial to her life and what she

1693
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:14,480
needed at that point so i think we do

1694
00:57:18,950 --> 00:57:16,880
have to uh

1695
00:57:20,150 --> 00:57:18,960
we have to use every possible tool

1696
00:57:23,750 --> 00:57:20,160
that's available

1697
00:57:26,789 --> 00:57:23,760
to help that person regardless of

1698
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:26,799
data or okay good that's a

1699
00:57:30,470 --> 00:57:28,960
that's a very good note to close on and

1700
00:57:32,230 --> 00:57:30,480
i want to thank you all very much for

1701
00:57:35,990 --> 00:57:32,240
your cooperation thank you

1702
00:57:39,349 --> 00:57:36,000
just add one thing and that is that

1703
00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:39,359
one of the big problems in this field

1704
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:42,960
is his resources you know we

1705
00:57:47,510 --> 00:57:45,280
we're beginning to get people who

1706
00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:47,520
volunteered to collect up a number of

1707
00:57:53,270 --> 00:57:50,640
mri or cat scans or who are

1708
00:57:54,390 --> 00:57:53,280
going to deal with alien writing or

1709
00:57:56,710 --> 00:57:54,400
something like this and we're beginning

1710
00:57:58,950 --> 00:57:56,720
to get into the specialist regime

1711
00:58:00,630 --> 00:57:58,960
but all of this kind of thing and the

1712
00:58:01,589 --> 00:58:00,640
investigation physical evidence in

1713
00:58:04,230 --> 00:58:01,599
particular

1714
00:58:05,109 --> 00:58:04,240
but data banks and standardized

1715
00:58:07,750 --> 00:58:05,119
psychological

1716
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:07,760
testing forms requires money and i

1717
00:58:11,670 --> 00:58:08,640
really think

1718
00:58:13,109 --> 00:58:11,680
that uh the people out there have got to

1719
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:13,119
start supporting

1720
00:58:18,069 --> 00:58:14,880
ufo research with a little bit more than

1721
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:18,079
uh 25 or 50 dollars i mean some serious

1722
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:20,559
resources are needed in this field and

1723
00:58:23,510 --> 00:58:22,000
progress is clearly being held